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front drums groaning when coming to a slow stop
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Author:  Willami [ September 23rd, 2009, 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  front drums groaning when coming to a slow stop
hi all

recently had to adjust the front drums as the left was pulling a bit. however, now the brakes are about 60% and in traffic or pulling up to a junction, i get a groan / slight shudder for about a second before a dead stop....(same noise as if you have full brake on a hill and very lightly release your foot)

do i just need to adjust the brakes again or is it something more serious / costly

incidently - i've followed the Haynes method for adjustment, but does anyone have any tricks of the trade or bits of advice....i.e. roughly what does an inch turn on the spanner represent in pad/shoe gap?

a simple one i'm sure but it's just not working great for me at the moment

thanks alot
Willami
Author:  2CViking [ September 23rd, 2009, 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: front drums groaning when coming to a slow stop
It may be that the shoes has no meat left on them and the sound you hear is metal against metal. Drums brakes needs adjusting all the time. The first sign is that you can pump the brake pedal unless the wheel cylinders are stuck. When the brake lining is worn out, the adjuster bolt can't bring the shoes close to the inside of the drum and you need new shoes. My advice is, never ignore brakes and steering, they are to be in top condition. They may save your life one day.
Author:  Willami [ September 23rd, 2009, 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: front drums groaning when coming to a slow stop
2CViking wrote:
It may be that the shoes has no meat left on them and the sound you hear is metal against metal. Drums brakes needs adjusting all the time. The first sign is that you can pump the brake pedal unless the wheel cylinders are stuck. When the brake lining is worn out, the adjuster bolt can't bring the shoes close to the inside of the drum and you need new shoes. My advice is, never ignore brakes and steering, they are to be in top condition. They may save your life one day.


it's definately not metal on metal - it's not a grind....there was a good 5mm of meat on the shoes in May / June - and i haven't been hooning it since....done about 3000 miles maximum...if that

i'll get my 14mm spanner out later and report back....

cheers anyway
Will
Author:  2CViking [ September 23rd, 2009, 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: front drums groaning when coming to a slow stop
Yes I know. It is sometimes mighty difficult to be a mechanic from behind a computer screen. Best is always to remove the drum for inspection, when you have funny noises.
Author:  ken [ September 23rd, 2009, 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: front drums groaning when coming to a slow stop
Willami,
when you say that 'the left was pulling a bit', would I be correct in assuming that the car was tending to veer to the left under braking?

If that's the case, I'd suspect that you may have a leaky brake cylinder on the offside, especially since that 'groan & shudder' business is characteristic of linings which are contaminated with brake fluid.
The overall braking efficiency will also be impaired, so it's time for new shoes as well as cylinders... :(

Had to do this job on my oldest Dyane recently, for exactly the same reason, except it had a preference for the offside ditch under hard braking.

ken.
Author:  Willami [ September 23rd, 2009, 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: front drums groaning when coming to a slow stop
ken wrote:
Willami,
when you say that 'the left was pulling a bit', would I be correct in assuming that the car was tending to veer to the left under braking?

If that's the case, I'd suspect that you may have a leaky brake cylinder on the offside, especially since that 'groan & shudder' business is characteristic of linings which are contaminated with brake fluid.
The overall braking efficiency will also be impaired, so it's time for new shoes as well as cylinders... :(

Had to do this job on my oldest Dyane recently, for exactly the same reason, except it had a preference for the offside ditch under hard braking.

ken.


Hi Ken

yes, veering off to the left - at least it was before the groaning sounds - whilst it was veering, there was no groan.....hmm???

Going back to June this year, I had to take all the brakes apart after a gearbox rebuild. The cylinders are only about a year and half old / maybe 2 years....i didn't adjust the pads enough and had to pump the pedal for the car to brake properly - did this fine for an MOT pass in August.

However, a bit more adjusting was done in a rush (in the dark, on a hot engine!) and i basically over did the O/S brake, then the N/S too much which resulted in partial seizure....then the O/S again to compensate

i'm trying to avoid taking the drums off as it's a pain on an Ami - so i think i'll try start from scratch - which sort of brings me back to one of my original questions.....any tips for adjusting the cams?

thanks alot anyway - and i will certainly bare your comments in mind

Willami
Author:  2CViking [ September 23rd, 2009, 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: front drums groaning when coming to a slow stop
Sorry to say that you have no hope of getting it right if the adjuster eccentrics are not spot on. The brakes shoes move up/down and in/out when turning the eccentrics. Without correct centering tool it is not possible to set the shoes correctly. When the brake shoe(s) are getting worn, they need centering again to keep 100 % contact between the shoe and the drum. You can see old brakes where only part of the brake shoe is worn. Sometimes most of the lining is gone on the top and all is still left on the lower part.
Incorrect centering can also lead to uneven braking (pulling to one side)
I’m not talking about adjusting the brakes shoe on the adjuster bolt. That only brings the shoes closer to the drum, removing the pumping feeling on the brake pedal.
Author:  Willami [ September 23rd, 2009, 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: front drums groaning when coming to a slow stop
2CViking wrote:
Sorry to say that you have no hope of getting it right if the adjuster eccentrics are not spot on. The brakes shoes move up/down and in/out when turning the eccentrics. Without correct centering tool it is not possible to set the shoes correctly. When the brake shoe(s) are getting worn, they need centering again to keep 100 % contact between the shoe and the drum. You can see old brakes where only part of the brake shoe is worn. Sometimes most of the lining is gone on the top and all is still left on the lower part.
Incorrect centering can also lead to uneven braking (pulling to one side)
I’m not talking about adjusting the brakes shoe on the adjuster bolt. That only brings the shoes closer to the drum, removing the pumping feeling on the brake pedal.


boo hoo - sniff sniff :cry:

i fashioned a tool to centre them at the time of reassembling; but your comment on a need to re-centre makes sense....i wondered how the bottom of the pads would adjust themselves - answer - they won't....damn

next question - how easy is it to take the front off the car intact (face/wings/inner wings in one hit.....) with a baby imminent and the Ami being my only car, time is tight....and money obviously
Author:  toomany2cvs [ September 23rd, 2009, 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: front drums groaning when coming to a slow stop
Willami wrote:
i fashioned a tool to centre them at the time of reassembling; but your comment on a need to re-centre makes sense....i wondered how the bottom of the pads would adjust themselves - answer - they won't....damn


I took the drums off the AK the other day, and found they're concentrics on there at the mo. Uncle Roy sells 'em, I think. No more adjustment at the bottom, ever.

Of course, this ALSO means that they'll almost never be correctly adjusted.

If you want, I'd be happy to swap my concentrics for your eccentrics (or give a home to four spare eccentrics from anybody else...)

I've also got one of Viking's shoe adjuster tools you're more than welcome to borrow.
Author:  Willami [ September 23rd, 2009, 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: front drums groaning when coming to a slow stop
toomany2cvs wrote:
Willami wrote:
i fashioned a tool to centre them at the time of reassembling; but your comment on a need to re-centre makes sense....i wondered how the bottom of the pads would adjust themselves - answer - they won't....damn


I took the drums off the AK the other day, and found they're concentrics on there at the mo. Uncle Roy sells 'em, I think. No more adjustment at the bottom, ever.

Of course, this ALSO means that they'll almost never be correctly adjusted.

If you want, I'd be happy to swap my concentrics for your eccentrics (or give a home to four spare eccentrics from anybody else...)

I've also got one of Viking's shoe adjuster tools you're more than welcome to borrow.


Hi TM2CVs

i read about concentrics on the other forum a while back - they seem to polarise opinion....but if you are happy with them, i'm guessing they have there uses (not wishing to dismiss ECAS product by the way) i think i'll stick with my eccentrics for now to be honest - but may well change my mind in the future!!

as for that tool - that is very kind of you, i wouldn't mind borrowing it yes

cheers
will
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